I knew I'd get some flak for that post. Sorry if my thoughts were muddled... I'm not so skilled at conveying my ideas with words. Basically, I'm not going to pursue the whole of this debate, because I've done that before and it never gets anywhere. You haven't made any points I haven't heard before, but I don't mean that in a rude way. Just a statement. I'm going to step back for a moment.

But there is one question I'd like to ask. Just out of curiousity, and as respectfully as I can. I'm not trying to debate, I'd just like to get a better understanding of how other people think.

I'm puzzled about the definition of "progress." You say that it's natural for society to progress from strict moral codes to looser ones. But does progress have to travel in *this* direction? If society went from its current state into one that was more morally-conscious and critical about specific "rights and wrongs," could that be called progress also? It would probably be called regression, quite the opposite. The word "progress" has a positive connotation -- it's a good thing. So by calling the liberal social shift I described as "progress," wouldn't that be implying rather strongly that it is a good thing? In other words, you're saying that it's GOOD for society to engage in increasingly more things that are traditionally known as BAD. So, in whose opinion is this "progress?"

And then there are conservatives, like me. If I say that progress is society moving into a morally-aware state that makes a clear distinction between good and bad, I am labeled as a preposterous thinker. Why can't that be progress? WHO decided that progress has to stray from traditional values? Liberals. And now we conservatives are viewed as impediments to progress, and that makes us the bad guys. Something's fishy here. Look up the definition of "progress" in the dictionary. It's simply a movement to a more perfect society. It's illogical for progress to work in favor of a certain political agenda, regardless of spectral alignment.

But I guess if you believe that what you LIKE is "progress," that *would* make you feel like you're right. If you swapped labels (calling conservatism "progress" and liberalism "regression") that would certainly do a number to the liberals' self-esteem. Of course, seeing the close tie between liberalism and humanism (and the importance humanism places on self-esteem), that could be a crippling blow to the liberal factions... Then maybe we could have some REAL progress! Um, never mind that, I'm just scheming aloud. Not that this is a battle or anything... :-)

-useless"Really, that last paragraph was a joke! Don't have a hissy fit!"ness