> > > There is, of course, also the distinct (albeit slightly depressing) possibility that the entire question "why?" is meaningless because the universe itself is meaningless.
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> > It may seem like I'm just trying to be cleverly quarrelsome, but I'm genuinely curious... what, precisely, do you mean by 'meaningless'? It (along with 'meaningful') is a word I hear people use over and over, and I never have any clear idea of what they mean by it.
>
> I quote from "Webster's New World Collegiate Dictionary, Fourth Edition:"
>
> meaningless: having no meaning; without significance or purpose; senseless.
>
> I think that definition works nicely.
>
> > I realize that my question is dangerously looped, so perhaps I should rephrase it: Describe to me a meaningless universe, and what that quality of 'meaninglessness' really entails.
>
> In other words, it is a universe without a purpose. In such a universe, the question, "What is the meaning of life?" would be nonsense, because nothing would have any meaning. There would be no purpose for anything, and everything just was with no greater significance.
>
> I'm thinking this might be easier to define in the negative. A universe with meaning would be one in which, for example, the Christian God existed and had a divine plan for all of reality. Under this plan the universe would have a purpose (though humans may not understand it) and everything would be moving toward some grand scheme. Every person's life would have meaning and significance within this plan.
>
> A meaningless universe is simply a universe devoid of such a plan. Is that clear?
>
> Ste "Not saying that the universe is either way" phen

Yes, quite clear, thank you.

I find it interesting to think of a meaningless universe that is yet capable of producing beings who have some concept of meaning. It seems to me unlikely that, if the universe really were meaningless, we'd have any idea of it (because the possibility of something having meaning would never occur to us.) Purpose, order, cause, and effect are so wrapped up in everything we do. Even just having language lays some level of meaning, as opposed to simply existence, onto our lives. That one thing can symbolize another-- it's a far lower order of meaning than an ultimate plan for the universe would be, but it is still meaning.

Anyway, all this is one reason I find it rational to believe in God. But I am suddenly intrigued by the other possibility. If a meaningless universe did produce beings with an idea of meaning, then... what? Are we deluded? Is the whole concept some random quirk of our mental functioning? Surely, if the universe really is meaningless, we would do better to live like animals. A lot of work goes into our daily functioning as, for example, members of society. Aren't we wasting our efforts if, ultimately, this idea of 'meaning' we have is just an illusion?

This thought is, of course, abhorrent to me. I hate the idea that it doesn't make a speck of difference to anything whether I die tomorrow or live to be 80. And again, it is interesting to me to think of a universe producing beings whose minds revolt against it.

I suppose the other possibility (given a meaningless universe) is that, by conceiving the idea of meaning, we have in a sense created meaning. That it is not inherent in the universe, but that it is nonetheless a valid concept, at least as it applies to us. If this were true, then we would be, in a sense, superior to the universe we came from. It would have produced something higher than itself, and in that case, we might in the end impose meaning on the rest of it. Does that make sense? (It does in my head, but only just, and I don't know that I'm saying it clearly.)

Yeah. Anyway. Enough rambling. This is probably philosophy 101, and a lot of you have probably been through it long ago. I just got caught up on a train of thought... but if anyone else has something to add or clarify or object to, I would love to hear it.

Lire"this is my favorite kind of conversation"lyn