> At the same time as that, I feel that probably a large part of why you feel that way may be to do with the fact that you were brought up to feel that way and the US government takes every opportunity to tell people how good the US is and a lifetime of that is bound to sink in a little?

As Eric pointed out, there are all sorts of elements in our government that rather dislike the country -- trust me, anyone who went through public schools (at least in California) is well aware of many of the horrific things the US has done in the past.

*My* love for the country is based upon what I'd like to consider to be fairly thoughtful and objective reasoning and analysis. My love for the US is two-fold:

1) I love the general principles upon which it was founded. Our cannonical documents are the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. Read those (and check out The Federalist Papers while you're at it if you want a defense of the Constitution from Madison, one of the most brilliant minds this country ever produced) and I think you'll pick up what I consider to be the central point of America: that all people are free to live their lives as they best see fit. Government is a necessary evil that is instituted by men to fulfill only a few specific tasks (chiefly the protection of life, liberty and property) and that it should otherwise leave people alone. To be sure, this ideal has not always been lived up to but I think it is generally strived for.

2) I'm extremely proud of our accomplishments. We are the longest-standing democracy in history, absolutely destroying Athens' previous record. We have also been one of the most productive nations in the world, which has led to our having the world's strongest economy fairly steadily for the past half-century. Our citizens enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, we have some of the longest lifespans and we rate ourselves among the happiest people in the world (obviously a subjective statement). We also have one of the highest (if not the highest) rates of immigration in the world, which I think testifies to the fact that people want to live here and enjoy doing so.

Furthermore, on a personal and completely subjective point, I love my life. I love the opportunities and freedoms I'm afforded in this country and I truly believe that I can accomplish anything I want in this country. I love living here. This doesn't mean I hate other countries -- it just means that I love the one I'm in.

Think of patriotism as being in a relationship. You can love your significant other without disliking other people. Saying that I love my girlfriend does not imply that I dislike all other women or anything of the sort. Just that the one I'm with is the one that is right for me. I feel that way about America -- it's the right country for me.

> No argument about that. Just out of curosity do you over there get the same arguments about "We must do something about the shrinking population - have more babies!", while at the same time "We must keep immigrants out unless they're the Right Sort for us (white, good professions, etc), and be careful of those asylum seekers!"?

The US has experienced a steady population growth pretty much since it was founded. It has tapered off quite a bit recently, but remains positive largely because of immigration. I've certainly never heard anyone complain that we were in danger of shrinking.

The immigration issue is a bit more complex. California borders Mexico and we get a large rate of illegal immigrants. Said immigrants are pretty much always impoverished and uneducated. There are some complaints that they're taking American jobs away from Americans (a pretty ludicrous statement because they largely take jobs such as picking crops that most Americans wouldn't do), but the big complaint is they benefit from our social services such as welfare, health care and education without paying into them. I think Mexicans are the only immigrants you ever really hear about, but it might just be because I'm in the state most impacted by them.

> I can't think that there'd be much good to say about monsieur Bush,

I'll say a few good things about him (and I did not vote for him and am not a particularly big supporter of his): he seems to be a generally sincere, honest individual. It makes him sort of tactless sometimes, which can be a disadvantage when dealing with foreign affairs, but Americans love direct leaders. And I must say I admire his willingness to say some really non-PC stuff (such as labelling countries like Iraq as "evil").

For the record, I was also really impressed with the way he handled the Chinese spy plane incident, which happened in his first 90 days in office if memory servers.

> and it saddens me when I hear people believing in such a stupid dangerous man (or one who puts on a good performance of one if he isn't...). A government isn't a nation, but it is the _face_ of a nation.

I don't think Bush is stupid (he comes off that way a lot, but I think it's because he's a crappy speaker, though he has improved quite a bit). You need to provide reasons as to why you think he's dangerous.

> That explanation works better for me. But disregarding the opinion of the rest of the world because you have more missiles than the rest of them combined appears to be Bush's solution...

Like with what? The Kyoto treaty? The International Court? Come on. We're under absolutely no obligation to give a wit what the rest of the world thinks of us and we're certainly not under any obligation to bind ourselves to the whims of the "international community" -- this is the whole idea of sovereign nations.

I had a political science professor who summed up all of international relations in one word, which he drew on the board in big block letters:

ANARCHY

Yeah, that's right, there is no world government. There is no international law (law by definition requires a government to make and enforce it). It's simply a bunch of players all competing for their own best interests. Virtually no head of state really cares more for the world as a whole than about his own country. It really is a game of who has the most power and who has the will to use it. Ideally, things can be solved diplomatically, but don't fool yourself into thinking that any country would go along with policies it didn't like unless it was forced to or saw some benefit for itself. The US is picked on the most here because, well, we have the most power. We're not any different than every other country out there; we're just more visible.

Don't like it? Tough. This is the real world. It's nasty, brutish and is ruled by people who understand this.

Now, if you would like to provide real examples of how the US has abused its power I'd like to hear them. Personally, I feel that virtually every time we've used our power it has been justified. Sure, there are a few minor exceptions (the Spanish-American War is the first that always springs to mind), but on the whole I think we've done a good job.

Stephen